tal9000:

taleth:

ameliated:

taleth:

ameliated:

A clarification:

I wrote a post about so called “women born women” spaces.

Let me make this chrystal clear:

Anything that provides a service, like a shelter, isn’t what I meant. Battered women’s shelters are for all women. I wasn’t referring to safe spaces. Anything that women might need. Anything that ISN’T just a social meeting shouldn’t be able to discriminate against any trans women.

I wrote that post after seeing an argument break out about Michfest, and a specifically a few other festival/meet ups like it, where a few feminists who made the group were getting berated by trans women who wanted the address for the meeting. They were trying to say they weren’t being transphobic for saying it was a cis women’s meet-up. And I saw their point - because wanting to meet up with people who have VERY similar experiences isn’t discriminating against other groups who don’t share that. It’s not saying they’re not women, just that they wanted to have a meeting with people who they had similarities to.

And now I feel like a bit of a tool. Because shelters aren’t what I’m talking about. I see why people thought it was ironic that I got yelled at and nearly arrested for using the bathroom. That type of thing isn’t what I was talking about.

And, on top of that, I saw a lot of people getting angry at me.

In my (albeit, clearly errant) mind, I saw my post to mean what I was talking about in my mind: that a group of cis women who had similar experiences would want to meet up and share those experiences. But I worded it poorly.

In any case, I made a HUGE error.

Lots of people got angry. And I saw that valid anger as male privilege seeping through when you were angry that it looked like (again, entirely my fault) I was posting about trans* women being thrown out of safe spaces, bathrooms, and public spaces, like that was somehow OK.

I am sorry.

I am my own editor, and that was worded about as horribly as possible.

tl; dr:

My post about spaces for cis women was supposed to be about cis women being allowed to meet other cis women without it being called transphobic. I was an arrogant fool when I thought people who were angry with me about this were just showing internalized male privilege when they were fighting against oppression we’ve all felt.

I am sorry. If I ever write something that seems transphobic in the way that was, please contact me. If I’d known that was how it was coming across I would have edited it immediately. I am SO sorry to all those who I offended.

I *still* don’t understand why you think it’s okay to have an oppressor group be able to hold meetings that prohibit those from a group they benefit from the oppression of from attending?

(And yes, because I’m a person of colour, I can make this analogy) Take this for example:

White women only meeting (no woc allowed)

WoC only meeting

Do you think both of these meetings are acceptable to hold?

And this is why conversation is better then yelling.

I’ve had a lot of people throwing words like “sell out” and “transphobic idiot” around. I hear stuff like that and don’t listen. I can’t process irrational arguing. But Taleth has given me the first example that made me understand why this is so problematic.

I keep thinking about this, and you’re right. WoC have a right to (and do) have meetings about their experiences because they have a source of common pain and systematic problems to overcome.

If there was a meeting that said “white women only,” everyone would be shouting that it was racist.

Myself included.

And if that’s true, it’s simple logic that “cis women only” for anything, even a simple meeting, is transphobic, because you’re right. An oppressor group shouldn’t have meetings that don’t include the group they’re benefitting from the oppression of.

That makes a lot of sense.

I have a math quiz in the morning and I have to drop Mecca off before sprinting over to the most FUBAR parking situation on the planet, so I have to go to sleep. But you’re right. I was wrong. Cis women only spaces is trans phobic.

tl:dr Taleth, after a couple days of conversation, got me to understand where I was going wrong logically, by using a clear example and a consistant, even tone throughout conversation. Cis only spaces are offensive because an oppressed group shouldn’t be allowed to exclude the group they’re oppressing.

Thank you.

That was a good answer, thank you.

Uhhh, taleth.

She’s holding you up as the good one who kept an even tone.

She’s still tone-policing the rest of us. Still claiming tone policing is justified.

Also, note that her choice of who the good one is might as well have been completely random.

Oh Amy. Still fucking up.