caramelbaloney:

genderbitch:

caramelbaloney:

genderbitch:

Didn’t I reblog a link recently about a book that debunked a huge chunk of the vegan statistics about water usage and etc and pointed out huge destructive effects of soy production and a few other things?

A lot of vegan stats are pretty heavy bullshit, on the same level as a lot of meat industry’s bullshit “facts”

True, soy production is very damaging.  But far less soy would need to be produced if we ate it directly instead of feeding most of it to livestock.  Maybe some facts are bullshit.  But the UN report I cited contains 34 pages of references to the peer-reviewed scientific literature.  That’s about as unbiased as we can hope for.  As an environmental scientist, I agree with many of their conclusions.

The UN report is fine, “a lot” certainly isn’t all and definitely the meat industry needs to be changed intensely. I found the link too so read through that and figure out which of your stats are bad and which are good.

My concern is actually more how you’re inadvertently defending the ableism and classism of the other vegans involved in this by telling us not to get pissed at ableist, classist vegans because the system is mean to them.

Lemme make this clear, the system is super fucked up to trans people and it upsets me a lot because of how it screws me over. But that is never an excuse for me to act bigoted on any other axis of oppression when I’m upset. I do not have free reign to be racist anymore than they have free reign to be classist and ableist.

Do kindly leave your tone argument and apologism at the door.

Thanks for the link.  It’s true that humans can only obtain protein from the grasslands of the western US, for example, by eating animals that can digest grass.  Pigs can be fed on crop residues, but most of those residues are coming from crops grown to feed animals.  Neither of these arguments work because the demand for meat is way too high.  Even the very few animals that are not factory fed have caused extensive overgrazing out west.  Even this book states that if we ate only products from animals sustainably raised on marginal lands with minimal inputs and impacts, we might be able to produce half the current supply (though he doesn’t mention the really high cost).

I’m totally cool with people cutting their animal products in half. Like I said, the book criticizes both sides for their failings. Which is funny, there isn’t two sides, as there are people like me who think veganism is great, except for some flaws that make it nonviable in a lot of places

Still, all of this ignores the animal rights arguments.  While animal protein may have been vital in hunter-gatherer cultures, the deaths and suffering of animals have been rendered an unnecessary extravagance (not a “benign” one, according to the book’s title) by agriculture.  But most people won’t listen to it.

I actually wrote on this recently, raising flaws with this argument. Hmmmm. I think I actually was smart and bookmarked the link this time.

Here it is.

I’m still unclear, after reading many posts, how vegan arguments are classist or ableist.  Both of these statements seem to rest on the beliefs that vegan meals are either more expensive or more complex.  Neither of these are true and have been refuted, yet those arguments against veganism have appeared repeatedly.  For example, the USDA provides a database of simple, economical recipes by cost per serving.

I’ve actually already read that list. I can not afford most them. You do realize some people are homeless (like me, I have comp access cuz I’m illegally staying at a friend’s place. Hint: he does not pay for my food.) and down to one meal a day and sometimes just super cheap (like a dollar or 80 cents) snack food as that one meal, right?

This is classism right here. Assuming there’s a bottom to poverty. No matter how economical you think something is, there are people who are more poor. And that doesn’t much help folks outside the US, like Jem, who has to import a lot of stuff.

 Vegweb is all vegan and full of simple recipes, but it is not searchable by cost.

I think you’re confused. I’ve done all this research. Veganism would actually help reduce my IBS pain. So the only things keeping me from going vegan (or at least mostly vegan) is my financial situation and my other disabilities.

 While a vegan diet is healthier for most people, vegans aren’t arguing that people truly requiring animal products due to health issues shouldn’t put their own health first.

The vegans Jem and I were arguing with certainly were.

 Furthermore, in response to accusations of culturocentrism: “I’ve never seen a vegan argue that those people living on subsistence farms with unfertile soils in abject poverty shouldn’t eat the animals they’ve raised.  But that’s probably not most of us on tumblr.”  It’s also not an excuse for the rest of us.    

Except that, abject poverty farmers aren’t the only other cultures you’re ignoring. Like low tech cultures that operate with a different social structure, economic structure and use nature more directly for their needs. It’s pretty culturocentric to assume the only cultures spared are the impoverished farmers (and poverty isn’t even cultural, so… what?)

And I never said that affected the rest of us. Just that global veganism is impossible.

There is an important point, though, regarding access.  Not everyone has the time or ability to shop at the local grocery store and prepare even simple meals.  For example, maybe somebody works two or three jobs and only has time to stop for lunch at the McDonald’s drive-thru on the way between them.  Everyone knows the burgers are cheaper than the salads.  Maybe we should be asking why the most accessible foods for these people are those highest in refined sugars and saturated fats.  Isn’t that classism/racism?

Yep. And expecting these people to switch to vegan and referring to them mentioning these access issues as “excuses” is also classism. Which was kind of the problem.

By dismissing vegan arguments as bullshit, ableist, and classist, you are inadvertently defending animal abuse, excessive environmental damage, and further impoverishment of certain groups.

By ignoring the sections of the vegan movement that demand people change their life structure despite access issues, disability and class, you are allowing your movement to damage more people.

Also, I oppose agribusiness entirely (and capitalism) so I’m not contributing shit to the agribusiness system. Just cuz I criticize your flawed movement doesn’t mean I’m not also criticizing your enemies.

 I fully agree that the system is fucked up.  But instead of wasting effort criticizing vegans, who are trying to make changes through individual choices or public activism, shouldn’t that effort be directed at challenging this system?              

Did you actually read any of what the vegans we were arguing with said?

One called Jem’s disabilities an excuse. Another said that they were the poorest of the poor when they aren’t in order to claim classism doesn’t come into play in access. Hell, you exhibited classism in this very post.

Stop being a classism, ableism apologist. Stop being classist. Being vegan does not raise people above criticism for their bigotry. And it isn’t a waste of effort to expect your fucking movement to shape the fuck up and stop adding to that very system that we are in fact challenging. Which by the way, the badness in your movement is your responsibility as a vegan to fight (much like feminists have a responsibility to take the transphobia out of their movement)

And thanks for assuming that because we’re criticizing the bad apples of your movement we’re not challenging the system in other ways (and yes, criticizing the bad applies in veganism is challenging the system too. You are part of the system of ableism and classism). All of this comes off as Grade A apologism and derailing.

Are you done? Cuz I can start linking derailingfordummies a bunch now if you’re not. I already have a few squares on the classism and ableism bingo sheets and it’d be great to get a bingo today.

(Source: jemimaaslana)